INT: Here we are at corner of sunset and Gower, 1967, all this activity, what happens?
GS: I was interested in writing. Tried desperately to get one in the news. One of the problem in those days was there was no apprenticeship or minority program. Most of the time you needed five years on a newspaper before they looked at your resume. But I was on the inside, I got to know them. Later on when I became a stage manager I really got to know them. before that, I really wanted to show them I could write news. I brought material, some stuff I copied. They liked me, they couldn't squeeze me in because they had other much more experienced people. I went over to radio. JIM ZAILLIAN, STEVE ZAILIAN's father was head of news. He had just hired a girl who came out of UCLA, writer reporter. I thought this was a great opportunity, he had demonstrated an interest so maybe as a writer I could go to him and maybe get a job. He was interested. I think the week he was to make the decision he got the job at ABC news. I didn't want to follow him. I liked CBS, the environment, so I stayed. Then one of the guys who was the stage manager said we're all going on vacation. During the summer we will be looking for someone to replace us, you should get that job.

INT: Let me stop you for a minute. We're in Los Angeles, heart of the 60s, race riots. You as a Japanese-American, young man, how did you feel that that played into your being hired or not hired. Did you feel you were part of the organization? You talked earlier about interracial dating, did you feel there was a blind eye at the time or did they look at you differently?
GS: Interesting question, I've been asked that growing up. I have a really different take from most of the people I grew up with. I don't recall that many incidences of overt racism. consequently I don't have a mindset. I don't look for things to happen. I never thought for a moment when I was looking for a job, construction company or newspaper, other than that in terms of pursuing stories I didn't have a conscious mindset that I was a Japanese-American. I thought I was a human being. same thing when I got into television. I didn't have the consciousness in that. I didn't bring it to the way I approached the work. [INT: As an aside, I would guess that had a great deal with your personality. You are charming and easy, fun to be around. No chip on your shoulder. I think that brings a lot to the part] It helped me in the very beginning, I worked for some unbelievable. [INT: We'll get to JOHN RICH in just a little while. One of my favorites]

INT: So it's summer at KNXT, you are a stage manager?
GS: The way it worked out is I applied for the job, outside chance I would get it. One of my friends got it three months before, I thought It was because he had a background for it. I observed everything that was around from central control to watching stage managers. I said maybe I could do that. So they liked me and that was a break. I got that job. [INT: Just to provide context, in those days becoming a stage manager was first step to stardom. all of us at the network jobs, that was the key to success. Now here you are.] I didn't know that at the time that it was that big of a deal. I was never looking to be in the business that way. I just knew that was great. I had to join the DGA which was terrific. Paid 600 dollars, this was more than teaching. [INT: I remember like it was yesterday that the word went out ERV ZEVADA got the stage manager job. It was gigantic. It's huge, you are now a member of the directors Guild of America.] I am forever indebted, its one of the great things that ever happened to me.

INT: How was it being a stage manager?
GS: I think the first thing I stage managed was BOUTIQUE, the afternoon show. They are always taped, never really edited. In those days you had to cut the tape or just slam the segments together. God forbid you made a mistake in the middle. I had to read the slate. I read the slate five times because I could never get it right. It was hysterical, I had never done this before. I did this once later on for ALL IN THE FAMILY. I hitched on the slate and at the end of the night they had a pick up list and one of them was reading the slate. [BREAK FOR CLIP]

GS: But that was interesting. When I did the news, probably the most exciting thing I had done was the 6 o'clock news. It was nonstop, really exciting. [INT: Who was director?] JIMMY JOHNSON, MIKE COZZI. MIKE COZZI was an actor turned director, JIMMY did some acting, he had been a director a long time. PHIL THORNTON. BOBBI FRYE, DAN GINGOLD, he was primarily executive producing. There were associate directors in the booth but stage managers are on the floor. JERRY would be on right, reporter on the left. What we do is we get the script and we would time it with the AD, figure out how long it took to get there. It depends on who is reading it. How you speed up and slow down. This last thing at the end of the show which was his comment for the day. It was always a minute copy. He read that first. That was what I pointed to. JERRY could read a copy cold like I've never seen. Never missed a beat. If he read it a shade slower I would say speed it up and it would be good. What was exciting was when stories would come in last minute. Cues aren't there yet, the script is partly there. The rest is not. It comes in literally right after the opening statement.

INT: Now the roll ins are video tape and some film? Different times?
GS: Video tape are clear, probably spent some time on film, God only knows. It’s a single double triple system, director may have previewed it. All of these cues. [INT: The pictures sometimes jump on bulletin boards?] They are on the board, there is a guy falling asleep rolling the prompter. [INT: Now the camera guys, the sound guys are NABIT in those days. The GUILD folk are ADs Stage Managers.] I think at CBS the guild folk are IVW. Just at cobs. [INT: Quite exciting.] I remember one time I got so excited when I was cueing JERRY, the director yelled "cue cut" and I yelled cut at the same time. For a second JERRY stops, then goes on. they are hysterical in the booth. the other time I was cueing with a watch on and I launched it across the room.

INT: Unfortunately, there is no record of all that stuff. When you see it you realize how sophisticated we are today. In those days It was all manual?
GS: The harder part was the 11 o clock, half hour news. For my job it was all me, no AD. When I got the script, we get in at 10:15. We get the end thing, some elements of the script. But it's all you timing, figuring out what it is. No script, you give them signposts. GIL STRATTON sports was great. Professional, right on time. Well prepared. They were wonderful people. From the standpoint of what I did, I also had to talk with the director regularly to tell him what I was doing time-wise. The producer was actually AD/producer, he would tell me we were long, we would cut as we go. One time I actually cut an hour news show because of the president's speech, I had to cut it down to 15 minutes on the fly. That's as exciting as it got. [INT: But you're in the middle of it.] You're in the middle of it. I never saw anything I was doing up until that time, that was really exciting.

INT: How old are you?
GS: 23, 24. [INT: A giant future ahead of you?] I didn’t know what the future was. I got good at doing it, I became their main guy. ERVIN left after a point. JAY and JOHN followed me. I became the main guy. JERRY liked me enough so he made me his stage manager, I became AD. [INT: So you moved into the booth.] Floor was more fun because you are the be all and end all. You have to have a watch. The minute a film came on, you have to say its a 2 minute piece. All that was really exciting to me. Then we had shows in between. If you did the news, you did the six o clock and 11 o clock, they would always sandwich in a public service show. Like today's religion. That was straight cuing. And AD, that's just your timing.

INT: How long did you do this?
GS: I did that for 2 years, and then they were looking for minority developer at ABC. JOHN FORBES was Afro American so we applied for the job. We met PHILLIP MANDELKER I remember because STRAW DOGS had come out and it was his favorite movie. At the network, they were looking for a minority stage manager. I thought I had a good shot at Prospect and Talmadge, and CBS in Television City. When I applied to CBS, they called me and said we have to renege on the job. The reason was a few months before they had a huge strike. Laid off a lot of people. 69-70, right before I ended up. I came over after that. Laid off all these people, one day the strike ended, they decided not to hire back everybody. They didn't hire back stage managers and were going to hire me. One of the stage managers got wind, I don't know if he filed suit or a grievance, they didn't want to hire him back so they closed the job entirely. During the strike, one of the guys who came over, JIM RICE, never stage managed a local station. Didn't have a clue. I helped him through all the time he was there for. When there are opportunities for a job, when the job originally opens up he pushed for me. When it collapsed, I said they offered me a job at the old station. JERRY was starting a new show called JERRY VISITS, which was jerry visiting stars at homes. First days of compact video where there was one truck, a couple cameras, and that was what it was. Before they became a huge company. So we started this thing called JERRY VISITS, visited the stars. After a half a dozen, he calls me and says he is thinking of buying KNXT out, produce it myself, and deliver it to CBS and maybe syndicate it. I would like you to direct it and produce it. I don't know how to direct. I said I will hope you produce and got ERV ZEVADA, who ironically only became the producer, never the director. We met at Scandia. We set the deal, it was done, came back to the network for the 6 o clock news, it was a phone message from CBS, please call they are looking for stage manager with the NORMAN LEAR COMPANY. That was ALL IN THE FAMILY. They said a guy named BOB DAVIS was a supervisor, somebody dropped my name. Would I be interested. I said yes. Can you come over, I said I'm doing the local news, won't be out until 7 o clock. They said you will be meeting with our producer director JOHN RICH. I said can he wait, I'll come right after. He said yes he will wait. I finished the news. Hustled over there and met with JOHN.

INT: JOHN RICH, a giant in the business, directing and producing number one show, amazing credits from New York and LA, what's it feel like to be in the room with him?
GS: Big voice, powerful man, big presence, and as bright a mind as I've ever been around. I was pretty much in awe. I came in, we met and talked. To be honest, I just, I was in awe as a human being, in terms of getting that kind of a job I didn't know really what it meant yet. I didn't know how humongous this was. When I look back at the very first network job I ever had, was probably the biggest job anyone could expect to have. Number one show in the country and I was the stage manager. There were no two or three stage managers in those days. Only one guy, you were it. Might have 25 extras. It was just you unless you begged for a second person. We met, and for some odd reason we clicked. I'm not sure why. We happened to hit it off in the room. He did broadcast work in Michigan. I wrote my newspaper, he liked it. He liked I wanted something beyond this. I wanted an overall look. Nothing specific. He said I will tell you honestly, there were other guys offered and I wasn't pleased with them. The guy last year was doing the SONNY AND CHER SHOW so we would have to split time with them, I didn't want to have that. NORM has a lot of power, new show called MAUDE, we want what we want. I'm going to take the chance, I'm calling NORMAN, recommend that we hire you. I said nobody has moved from the local station in 8 or 10 years, it doesn't happen. He said I'll call CBS, they owe NORMAN a lot. He asked me which show I wanted to do. I said I met CARROLL on JERRY VISITS. BOB BROWN had given him his house in the Palisades because CARROLL never believed the show would last. I met him, I would like to do that one. He said he had another stage manager to put on MAUDE, TONY CSIKI He says you sure you can get along with CARROLL, I said yea. He said okay. That was it. I get back, finish the night, it was Friday. Sunday I get a call and it's the network. LARRY DAVIS who was hiring stage managers and ADs. I ended up using his son on a show. LARRY calls and says you are coming over in a week and a half. I'll be honest the network is not excited. We don't know you, you've never worked here, but we are forced to do what NORMAN wants. You better be good. [INT: Again, context, technical services was a closed shop. JIM HESSEN ran it tight. JOHN RICH and NORMAN LEAR bringing up your number was not something they were happy about because of loss of power.] That's right. The reason they recommended people was because they had experience. It's not like NBC or ABC with local stations adjoined to network, where they share stage managers. They didn't. When I came over, I remember the first day I came over, came on a Sunday. Didn't know who was there, didn't know that many people. JIM wasn't working then. I read my assignment, and I was to do a game show pilot, CHUCK BARRIS, who was 26 years old, producer. I didn't know what to do. It was JOHN DORSEY directing, who would set up and call shots, mile a minute. So he said make sure the traveler is closed, I didn't know what it was. I said ok. I remember standing and asking anybody what it was. I never went to lunch, never took breaks. I made sure everything, again I was the only guy. I didn't have another guy it was just me. the ADs for the most part didn't help you, especially a new guy. They didn't help, they resented me.

INT: Who were the ADs then?
GS: BOB GRAY was an AD, did the PRICE IS RIGHT, also ended up directing parades in New York. Long time AD. SAM GARY. HOWARD, this is 71, 72, 73. Guys who were doing THE RED SKELTON SHOW, CAROL BURNETT, SMOTHERS BROTHERS, all those kinds of shows. There were guys, some of them the ADs were directing variety shows. I remember my first week, at the end of the second week that MAUDE started up. JOHN wanted me to observe on MAUDE, HAL COOPER didn't direct the first episode, I forget who did it. I went on and observed, the AD was SAM GARY who said to the producers if he comes into the booth I am walking out. didn't want me there. Didn't want me to know what he did. [INT: Did you find out about this in advance?] No as it happened. I don't know where it came from, just that that was the case. Some stage managers, not all of them, just that I was the new kid on the block on the number one show in the country. They froze me out. There were a couple guys who helped me out. WILLY DAHL was terrific, and JIMMY was great too. BUDDY BORGEN. These are all guys who have been around. In those days JAY MERRICK was first SM on ALL IN THE FAMILY, been around for years. That was my first couple of weeks. The irony of it all was by the end of the first season, I was requested on almost every show I touched. [INT: Now who was scheduling that, HARRY ZIPPER, ROCKO LAPINTA, CHARLIE CAPPLEMAN?] CHARLIE was there, still there. But yeah, those are them.

INT: So, first day on ALL IN THE FAMILY?
GS: That was something. I was introduced to the cast and one thing, I always had a perception [INT: Third season?] Yeah. By the end of the second season it was clearly the number one show in the country. [INT: Blockbuster Saturday night, ALL IN THE FAMILY, MASH, MARY TYLER MOORE, BOB NEWHART CAROL BURNETT] Right, that whole series of shows was as good as it gets. [INT: Best Saturday night in television, probably ever.] I was introduced, my perception of actors was that there were some bright people, but they were actors. On this show, everybody was bright and smart. I had a whole different feeling on this show. They all were thoughtful, a lot of kindness. JEAN STAPLETON was kind, CARROLL was very open, remembered from the time on JERRY DUNPHY VISITS. He didn't have to but he did. And ROB and SALLY were good. Once I started to work they were terrific to me. They liked me I think, which they said they did, as was anybody they worked with on that time.

INT: Just as a flashback, having made the deal with JERRY DUNPHY, you now inform him you are working in Television City with ALL IN THE FAMILY, what was his reaction?
GS: You know, JERRY was ok with it. He was disappointed I didn’t come with him. He thought it was a real opportunity. As long as I covered him somehow, and I did with ERV. He liked ERV. Knew him because he stage managed, I said that was fine. I told him if there is, when I could I come back and help him out. Which I did a couple of times while I was on a break. It worked out ok. We laughed about it afterwards, we stayed friends.

INT: So now we are doing ALL IN THE FAMILY, the first two or three days are in a rehearsal hall?
GS: First two or three, two in rehearsal with only property master. [INT: So your staff at CBS are on other shows?] The first two days I was a second on SONNY AND CHER. [INT: CATS IN RIO] There was a stage manager who used to be an ex-dancer who all he did was dancing. He would do his cues and tap his cues. [INT: Worked on SONNY AND CHER?] A couple days. [INT: Was that PEPPIATT and AYLESWORTH?] It was before that I think. ART FISHER was the director. Crazy art, great director. But a maniac. [INT: Died way too young. So they work without you?] I come in on Wednesday and that's the first time I see the script. I see it in the office, but they could have rewritten half of it. I see it for the first time, Wednesday morning, figure out in running it two or three times what the props are. I had to pick it up all in that one day. We shot on Thursday nights. Originally we were shooting Tuesdays which means I would get there Friday morning and learn the show, Friday afternoon do a run through. That was always great. [INT: In those days that was the run through.] There was no Tuesday run through. The other thing was we read two scripts on Wednesdays. Script for following week and week we were doing. That was so that if there were major problems in the script two weeks down the road we would find it out in the meeting. We would have actors and producers right...